The Joe Rogan Experience: Socrates, “What is the Nature of Desire?”

JOE ROGAN: Umh, okay. We’re live. Welcome onto the show– to our listeners, say hi to Socrates, he’s a Greek philosopher– anyway welcome on. So I love your books man, they’ve really challenged me a lot, gave me a lot to think about. You’re a real wise, smart-guy type right? So you have never been on this sort of program before, I was thinking we would just do some of the big questions right off the bat, just to get a feel for what you believe in. First up, you’ve been called the gadfly of Athens? What the hell does that mean, do you think this is just another attack of the woke crowd on intellectuals?

SOCRATES: Indeed my friend, it is my belief that God himself has assigned me to the city of Athens as a gadfly, an office that I fulfill as best I can. I provide the sting of a fly to the lazy thoroughbred of Athens, and that is the sting of stimulation rousing it to work.

ROGAN: Haha, no, yeah for sure, I was just thinking that too. And I was just reading Twitter this morning and saw that Athens actually put you to death for that? Is that right?

SOCRATES: I am afraid it is. Truly it is as if I am to be Prometheus and my jury Zeus, put to death simply for the crime of seeking wisdom. 

ROGAN: That is so crazy. And it was just like that though, they poisoned you with like… no regard for what you were saying. 

SOCRATES: It is true.

ROGAN: So I have a real question for you now: What do you want? Like, you have recently returned from the dead, you’re all over the news and you might have the potential to be the greatest philosopher like ever right now. So what is it that you want?

SOCRATES: What is it to want? Does a root want water? Does a poor man want gold and wealth? I am a simple man and it seems that you, being so familiar to this new age, would know far more about the nature of desire than me. 

ROGAN: Oh wow, man, I’m honored I really am. So like, what is it that you are asking? Like I know that I really want to own a boat– like that’s a really big thing for me. A big one too, not like some shitty fucking tin can you know hahaha. But like what you were saying… What does a root or some broke guy have to do with me?

SOCRATES: Consider this: a root digs through the earth in search of water, and this search for water moves it in such a way that it grows into new shapes. I’m sure that one so well experienced as you could explain why this is (or is not) because of the desire of the root.

ROGAN: You know I see what you’re onto here but I feel like I want something you have to like… think about it. Like what does a rock want? Nothing obviously, because it’s a rock. Like a rock doesn’t want a boat. I want a boat. It’s not the same thing. 

SOCRATES: But surely the rock has no use for a boat. It would be much the same to suppose a book wants a grapevine, or a seashell wants a city or a child wants a telescope. Do you understand?

ROGAN: Uh, say that again, I’m not sure what you’re getting to. 

SOCRATES: You and a rock don’t both seek a boat because the rock is not trained in the arts of seafaring. But you seek a boat and a bird seeks grain. What is the difference? 

ROGAN: One is a boat and the other is not?

SOCRATES: Of course that is a difference but what is the difference between the respective desires? All I want from you is this pearl of wisdom. 

ROGAN: Huh yeah, like obviously hahaha… well then the difference is that I want a boat because it would be fucking sick to have a boat. Like a bird doesn’t want food because it thinks food is like the coolest thing ever and has always wanted to get some food so that he can show his friends all his food and like have cool ass parties on his food you know. 

SOCRATES: Exactly Joe Rogan! So the bird needs food for its survival, but you desire a ship for the satisfaction it provides you. Is desire the search for satisfaction outside of your own basic survival?

ROGAN: Hmh. Okay. I mean yeah I guess it is. To like… desire something is to want something that gives you pleasure and is not just to fulfill your ancient primal needs. Like the cavemen didn’t have desire, they just got food and water and fought off dinosaurs and whatever. 

SOCRATES: So which one is it then? Is desire to seek out pleasure or is it to want pleasure?

ROGAN: What? 

SOCRATES: I suppose I was mistaken to trust your tutorship in the matters of desire. I am saying this as simply as I am able: Is desire the pursuit or the passive urge for happiness?

ROGAN: Okay, I see it now. I don’t think you have to be like doing stuff to desire something. Like I’m not buying a boat right now but I know I WANT a boat. 

SOCRATES: This is good, Joe Rogan, you have correctly identified desire to be (1) the longing for satisfaction and (2) to be passive and not necessarily in active pursuit of satisfaction. Now surely you must take me on as a pupil now, I am too fascinated with your wisdom to leave.

ROGAN: Absolutely haha. Okay but for real now…what is it that you want to do now?

SOCRATES: Not yet, Joe Rogan! I still have a query for you left. Imagine for a moment that you secured a ship and were free to set sail, travel the world, whatever you wish. Do you imagine you would be happy? Satisfied?

ROGAN: I mean yeah, like why not. I guess I could get a bigger boat, or maybe like.. another boat.

SOCRATES: So it would be true to say that desire cannot be fulfilled, correct?

ROGAN: I guess not.

SOCRATES: So with this clarified I would like to propose that the difference between your own desire and that of a root or that of a bird is the fact of its fulfillment. That is to say a root will find a water source and take the fill needed for its connected plant, a bird will find seeds and eat until content. A man, however, will forever seek more than what they have. Would you see this to be true?

ROGAN: Sure, go on.

SOCRATES: Then our next question is why does one seek anything at all? Surely we have all found ourselves to be discontented upon the apparent fulfillment of desire. We understand, of course, that our desire is boundless. Why do we still search for more?

ROGAN: Because we think it’ll make us happy right? 

SOCRATES: But we know it cannot. This is self-evident from the limitlessness of our desire. 

ROGAN: Huh. 

SOCRATES: Can the goal be satisfaction if we know it is impossible? 

ROGAN: Probably not.

SOCRATES: Then what else to the formulae is there to provide happiness? All we have to work with is desire, the image of satisfaction, and the realization of dissatisfaction.

ROGAN: What about this: we gain happiness out of desire because we seek satisfying it rather than the satisfaction itself. Like, doing stuff makes us happy not getting what we want out of the work.

SOCRATES: This is a rather convincing argument, but I am afraid we have already made it impossible. We clarified before that desire can be inactive and it is still desire. 

ROGAN: Then there isn’t an explanation. What else could you say?

SOCRATES: Not quite. With all other options removed, we simply are left with desire itself as the source of pleasure. 

ROGAN: So we want things for the sake of wanting them? Desire is itself the source of happiness? 

SOCRATES: Exactly.

ROGAN: But how does that work? Why would wanting something cause us satisfaction? 

SOCRATES: Not satisfaction, exactly. We have already shown that that is unreasonable to ask for.

ROGAN: Happiness then. How could simply wanting something give us more happiness than having it?

SOCRATES: I thought you to be the teacher here! Simply, I offer that to desire is to imagine the enjoyment and satisfaction provided, while to fulfill a desire is to become disillusioned with the desired object. 

ROGAN: Then what is the point??

SOCRATES: That is a question for you. 

ROGAN: Uh. Actually you know what, we’re about at time. Thanks for coming on man, this was a great talk. I feel like I learned… just so much you know. Catch me next time on the Joe Rogan Experience! You can find us on Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. Thanks for being here Socrates!

(Joe Rogan photo courtesy of Netflix)